Lots of chatter on a recent Bug’s Question of the Day that asked “Why don’t more blues dancers go to events like ILHC and Lone Star to compete in the blues divisions? Why don’t the lindy hoppers who compete in the blues divisions at ILHC and Lone Star come to Blues events and compete?”
Eventually a comparison of recent contests came up, and some people mentioned that people who do well in Blues contests at Lindy events wouldn’t do well in Blues contests at Blues events.
I want to talk about this more in depth, but I’m still putting together some thoughts and discussing it with some people. Until I can post something coherent, I thought I would pose this little thought experiment.
I very haphazardly edited two videos together of the winning performances from the Strictly Slow Blues competition at bluesSHOUT 2011 with Ruby Red & John Joven (first couple) and the Strictly Blues contest at the Lone Star Championships 2012 ( a mostly Lindy Hop event) with Evita Arce & Jeramie Anderson.
I just want to pose this simple question: Would Evita & Jeramie’s performance be that out of place at a Blues event? Discuss, and I’ll be back next week with a post comparing the Blues and Lindy sub-cultures, and the role of competitions.
nallakim said,
January 25, 2012 at 11:04 am
I love to dance both lindyhop and blues…
so.. I can’t say which one is better than another…
But.. I love Evita and Jeramie’s style more~
And, it’s very hard to recognize which one is blues dancers’ blues if I didn’t know Evita and Jeramie and I didn’t listen the music (yeh, I know that they are awesome lindyhoppers and Careless Lovers played for them )
Anyway…both styles have leading, following, momentum… some common things as couple dance…and but, there are some technically differences… major connection, body control and “MUSIC”…
As Frankie said, Lindyhop was the dance at that time (swing era) I think Lindyhoppers’ blues mainly refers to the swing era… But, Blues dancers’ blues doesn’t… Blues dance has changed a lot by music and blues dancers…
And… my favorite Blues dancers are Joe & Nelle (Denver, CO)
But, SUPER AWESOME…
they have taught, compete and performed in both swing and blues scenes… I don’t wanna categorize their dance to blues dancers’ or lindyhoppers’… it’s just Joe&Nelle style
just enjoy their performance at Blues Shout
p.s. I’m not good English speaker… sorry for my sucks English…
I can stop dancing Blues… But, Can’t Stop the Lindy Hop
Nalla Kim
Kenny said,
January 25, 2012 at 6:04 pm
I enjoyed your splicing choices. If you remove some of Jeramie and Evita’s flash and trash, they were quite comparable dances. I liked J&A over J&R, but that’s not the question, is it?
Take out the air flash and I think they’d be right at home in a blues competition. They blended their dance with open position shapes, elongated dips, and close embrace moments. They struck a nice balance.
I’m a lindy hopper first and blues dancer second. Some folks might immediately say I’m naturally biased, but I’d like to think I know good dancing from bad. Anyway, I look forward to your upcoming post.
John said,
January 27, 2012 at 12:12 am
I agree that they wouldn’t be out of place at Blues Shout minus the air flash. I don’t think they would have made finals the way they danced, but they wouldn’t be out of place. I liked them the best of the three in that final.
I don’t think I would have made finals at Lone Star dancing the way I danced at Blues Shout. It’s important to note that the judges would be looking at different things in the two contests. I would dance differently at LSC based on what I think the judges are looking for.
anon said,
January 27, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Elaborate!!! don’t pull punches either. It seems like when this topic comes up, I keep hearing/reading “it’s not the same” but not really any specific detail as to why
BalboaBob said,
February 6, 2012 at 2:37 pm
You could technically say the same thing about many other dances. For example, Balboa would have some very different things being judged at events like All Balboa Weekend, Eastern Balboa Championships, ILHC, and Camp Hollywood. That’s how competitions work, they’re always a little different based on who’s judging and the atmosphere of the event.
Shawn said,
January 30, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Man, can I just say that I “like” Kenny and John’s comments?
Jeramie said,
February 10, 2012 at 10:45 am
Kenny and John, please elaborate. I am interested in why you believe we wouldn’t have made it or what constitutes as trash and flash ( a phrase which almost seems insulting to me). Evita and I were truly just dancing and having a blast. Nothing was rehearsed, planned or even intended to be trashy. What you saw was just pure enjoyment of the music. I am not sure how taking someone from the ground to the air to emphasize dynamic movement/musicality is trashy, but I am definitely interested in hearing more about both of your opinions. I believe that the key to any competition is dancing to your audience, and I believe that is what Evita and I did.
John said,
February 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm
You it it right on the head Jeramie. You were dancing to your audience.
I don’t think your moves were trashy. I think “flash and trash” is just a general term for fancy moves that may or may not be extraneous. What matters is what the judges thought about it. Maybe Kenny does believe your moves to be trashy, but I’d err on the perspective that the comment wasn’t meant to be insulting.
To the best of my recollection, the judging criteria at Blues Shout is this:
1. Blues Aesthetic
2. Partnering
3. Musicality
4. Creativity
All things being equal, the tie breaker is risk taking.
According to Jerry Warwick who was a judge at Lonestar and has judged at Blues Shout,
“At Lone Star it is about ‘Good dancing done to blues music.’ Is it entertaining and [does it] have good musicality[?]
At BluesShout, it’s Blues Aesthetic #1, Partnership and then musicality.
I chose Jeremy and Kelly for 1st place because I felt their partnership was cleaner and their musicality was stronger. Plus they did not over dance the song.
While Jeramie and Evita’s dance was great and had lots of WOW!, I didn’t feel it matched the feel of the music and Evita outshined Jeramie a little bit too much. So, I didn’t feel they were dancing together so much as Jeramie was supporting Evita. But it was fun to watch.
So, judging at the events is much different and most of the good dancers understand that. And I as a judge at both events do not mind that either.”
(quoted from Jerry Warwick’s comment in the January 18 Bug’s Question of the Day)
The criteria the judges used to evaluate the performances of the dancers are different at these two competitions. Something that could be wildly entertaining and audience endearing might not win at Blues Shout. The same goes for the most bluesily aesthetic performance at Lonestar might not make it out of the prelims. It’s all subjective. It’s up the competitors to figure what the judges will favor the most.
Kenny said,
February 14, 2012 at 10:17 pm
I’m glad I came back to review this thread. Jeramie, please don’t take insult to my comment. I refer to the lifts as flash because they are flashy. They caught the eye and were aesthetically-pleasing. I liked it. “And trash” just rhymes. It fits like “after a while, crocodile”. Does this make sense?
There was a lot of them, so gradually their effect on me was diminished. And trust me, I like your and Evita’s movements much better than the Blues Aerials demos that are on youtube.
As to why you wouldn’t have made it….? Does that refer to a blues comp? If so, that’s because I don’t see those often or at all, so I infer the lifts may not be rewarded.
Calico said,
February 22, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Yeah, “flash and trash” while it *can* be used disparagingly, is also often applied to crowd-pleasing, eye-catching, contest-winning moves that people talk about for months afterward. I think the lifts in the J&E clips were the good kind of flash and trash, musical, appropriate, totally badass. : )
John said,
February 10, 2012 at 2:46 pm
Hehe, Jerry W.’s “WOW!” is Kenny’s “Flash and Trash.”
* said,
February 11, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Why is “risk taking” a tie breaker? Aren’t risks what push the scene forward?
Shawn H (I put my last initial since another Shawn already posted) said,
February 13, 2012 at 10:19 am
In my moment of procrastination I went to Yehoodi and listened to the show and heard the reference to this post. So now I can continue procrastinating by writing a comment / analysis.
I’m very interested in this debate myself since I both love Lindy Hop and teach and compete in the national blues scene. The blue scene may have changed since I started competing but I was a Lindy Hopper and started placing in blues competitions since the very first blues event I attended. I think the same is true of some other people that are now part of the blues scene. So I think it might be false that Lindy Hoppers don’t or wouldn’t place at Blues competitions.
However, I’ve spent time trying to understand the distinction between the blues aesthetic and what comes naturally to me as a Lindy Hopper. One distinction the blues community makes, that I thinks makes sense, is what many people call Ballrooming vs. Juking and how you should dance both styles. They match two very different styles of music: slow trad swing and blues (like Chicago, delta, etc…)
In the video that you posted, John and Ruby have two spotlights. The first is done to a more chicago style blues. The second is done to something more in the style of slow trad swing. You can see their style of movement change between the two songs. For the blues tune they do a lot of close embrace, a lot of nice hip movement, and a lot of sinking into the floor through moves like fish tails.. For the trad tune, they don’t sink into the floor quite as much and take out some of the hip movement.
Notice that in both they do a lot more close embrace than Jeramie and Evita do.
Both of Jeramie and Evita’s spotlights are very much in the slow trad swing genre (of music) and the way they dance reflects that. I think if they dance to a gritty chicago blues with harmonica, they would probably dance at least a little differently. I know Jeramie can not only dance the blues but play the blues since we used to play in a band together.
I think there are a few ways that I have to think about dancing differently as a blues dancer. Amanda Gruhl got me involved in the blues scene. When we started working together, she asked me to dance a lot more in close embrace. I’ve come to realize that a lot of blues dancers think of blues as having a default position of close embrace (like Balboa or Tango). And just like Balboa or Tango, the close embrace can be really fun and nice. Additionally, especially when dancing to a Chicago blues song, I try to dig into the floor, stay away from my natural tendency to use a lot of momentum based moves, and focus on body movement, relying on the shared jazz/blues steps like fish tails, boogie forward, shake and bake. All stuff Steven Mitchell has taught to many Lindy Hoppers.
Also, blues dancers tend to like break-aways and I think you see that less from Lindy Hoppers.
In case it’s not obvious from my comments, I tend to care more about quality of dancing and how it fits the music than I do about classification and a specific aesthetic. But I do believe there’s definitely a difference between Juking blues and Ballrooming blues. I think the difference between ballrooming and slow dancing done by great Lindy Hoppers is less clear.
Many Lindy Hoppers don’t choose to go to Blues events. I don’t know if I would have started going to them if not for Amanda. Blues events seemed to have a stigma of being less about the dancing and more about dancing dirty and hooking up back when I started. But after going to my first event (I think it was the predecessor to Blues Shout) I discovered it was super fun and there was plenty of great dancing and music to be had. So I’m obviously hooked on the blues scene and have enormous amounts of fun dancing at those events. I’d love to see more great Lindy Hoppers showing up to blues events.
If I were to say anything slightly critical of Lindy Hoppers blues dancing, it’s a tendency to rush a little more than I’d like. I know I have that tendency and constantly fight it. But so do a lot of other blues dancers.
Devona said,
February 13, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Great pairing of clips!
Both are great dances, with great partnering and musicality. The differences between the two clearly illustrate the difference in aesthetic. For example:
For blues dance the leg that carries the weight should always be flexed. The leg that is not weighted should most of the time be flexed.
For blues dance the movement should drop into the floor then push along the floor in a manor that creates visual rhythmic tension every two beats or so. Less of a “glide”, more of a “jog”.
For blues dance there should be greater resilancy in the connection creating greater lag between the leader and follower. This creates dynamic rhythmic push and pull with in the connection that seems loose and present at the same time.
For blues dance the muscle energy should not come from the side of the body that “leads” the movement, but from the opposing side. (for example a side hip roll to the right is created by the muscles on the left side of the left hip, not the right abdominals and rt side hip muscles.
Ruby and John illustrate all of those things constantly, not just during basics but throughout, including during “flash”. Jeramie illustrates most of those things most of the time with the exception of the ‘extra lag’ in the connection which is mostly not present. Those other things are not present consistently enough through out moves that are beyond basic, particularly in open position. Evita demonstrates the opposite of all of the things I listed pretty consistently, the exception being at the very end in close embrace.
In closing, E&J would likely have made finals at blues shout but would not have placed in the top 3. Also, unfortunately there are a few well known couples that teach blues that do not demonstrate the above items consistently and because of that they make finals but don’t win at blues shout.
Devona said,
February 13, 2012 at 1:42 pm
One other thing I meant to add; the technique should be hidden, not displayed.
Anon said,
February 23, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Won’t someone please speak of the movement quality?? I get that the blues dance community has a checklist of things they value (though of the things listed, I don’t see how any of them add to either the efficiency of movement or presentational value to the dance) but are you seriously telling me that at a blues dance event they value all of these over movement quality?
ALL of the finalists at Lonestar are great movers, and all of it is good dancing. Few if any of the dancers from the Blues Shout clip did anything that looked like professional dancing to me. It was at best mediocre movement, and at worse hilarious in the fact that their attitude/bombast was so out of proportion to their skill.
I can’t see any of those dancers being considered quality movers outside the blues world, and before anyone says so, I do not thing the same applies to pure bal or tango, both of which strongly value overall movement quality.
Michael Gamble said,
February 23, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Honest question – why does the blues community not like the “air work” the J&E were doing? They weren’t really aerials even, just elaborate dips and turns that sometimes had some vertical momentum.
azeroth2b said,
February 23, 2012 at 2:44 pm
@Michael: Why does the Lindy Hop community think that a dance shouldn’t consist entirely of Gap-Commercial Aerials?
Answer: Because the dance isn’t about that. Yes, it can be done and occasionally it might even fit the music and aesthetic, but it isn’t the dance and 99% of the time they’re exaggerating the music instead of fitting it.
@Anon: Blues as professional quality movement? That’s like me calling ballroom stiff.
Jeramie said,
February 23, 2012 at 3:18 pm
I think comparing a couple of lifts( That technically wouldn’t have been considered aerials) to a gap commercial is a bit drastic and dramatic. I understand the desire to have a core base of movement that is about being grounded, partnered movement and subtle musicality, but to lash out and insult just shows insecurity. The dance is still evolving and I understand that people are passionate about and want to defend it. Right now, the biggest arguments that I see with LindyHop blues and Blues, are quality of movement and preference of style/musicality. What you call exaggerating, I call a different interpretation of music. While you may not agree about the placement of the emphasis, I don’t believe it to be grounds for calling it exaggeration. As for including more momentum based moves etc and not always being grounded, I believe that to be a large part of blues music. While blues typically has a grounded and solid foundation, the solos and accents tend to be playful or an expression of emotion. The same goes for accentuating movement through momentum etc.
And as far as a rebuttals to quality of movement, it seems a bit off base and short sided to focus only on the aesthetics. Ballroom can appear very stiff at time, but it is the base of the movement. But the quality of the steps are clean and precise. The execution an timing is polished. I don’t believe this exists in the vast majority of blues, yet. The community is still new and growing. Not to say it won’t get there, but in my opinion, the quality of movement/lead and follow of most dancers that I have come across is still very juvenille. Aside from aesthetics, I believe that was the concern referred to before. It doesn’t make the attack on blues movement any more grounded, it just proves that it is hard to see beyond your own perspective and to respectfully address another opinion.
Please excuse any typos as I am replying via phone and just felt that sething should be said before this thread turned into a pissing match.
azeroth2b said,
February 23, 2012 at 4:26 pm
I’m sorry for the hyperbole. I’m not insulting the movement and dancing from LoneStar or any other Lindy Hop hosted Blues Competition from Showdown to ILHC to Lonestar. I was illustrating that LindyHop has a history of things that were loved and yet considered out of the nature of the dance and the connection is that many Blues Dancers feel that way about large lifts and dips.
The dancing desired from the two communities is different, and that’s okay. Anon basically called the whole of the Blues Dancer Community unprofessional and lacking in high quality movement. While I’m sure it goes both ways, recent posts and discussions included, you’ll have to forgive the Blues Dance community if they feel like there’s a prevailing sense of disdain.